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149541-chase-events-nothing-but-a-dirty-grab-for-money-page-3
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3 Content That's not true. It would depend on the value of the prizes and how the casino gets its cut. And again, you are missing the point. The point is that people spend loads of money looking for that small chance reward and enjoy the thrill of the gamble. That part is the same. Note, there were a few lawsuits and legal arguments over whether trading card companies putting "chase" cards in was considered gambling. This is not a new argument. | |} ---- Quick, let's argue semantics. When the possible outcomes are a 150pp+ mount and a piece of décor you could get for 10g before the event went live, the outcome is uncertain. There doesn't have to be an outcome that is exactly, strictly worthless for it to be gambling. You can lose value on the exchange. It's a bet you can lose. Edited February 12, 2016 by Shendorion | |} ---- ---- there is no small chance, there is a 100% chance at rewards. Just because you don't get the reward you personally want is moot. The mount isn't "worth" 150+ p. That price depends on how we manipulate the market, and how the market responds to demand and supply. Even green drops can be sold for very high prices. The value is not monetary, its purely subjective. and the Market value is likewise based on a variety of arbitrary economic processes in the game. All of them. If you are guaranteed a prize the outcome is determined (action: purchase = outcome: recieve in game item). That the item you get has an element of chance does not make the outcome (receiving an item) uncertain. I sit out in the sun = outcome I change color. If I turn pink or brown does it change the definitive nature of the outcome? no. | |} ---- It's not moot at all. Of course it matters if the reward is something you actually want. The small chance is for the reward you want. People aren't buying the gamble boxes for the undesirable rewards. If the desirable ones weren't there, people wouldn't buy them. Don't be obtuse. | |} ---- Everything is valued based on "how we manipulate the market", including money itself. This argument of your is a complete distraction from constructive conversation. You are arguing a definition of a word. Even if you were right, it wouldn't further this discussion in any way about why people do or do not like these rng boxes. | |} ---- All the rewards are desirable to some one. Its not a constructive discussion. RNG boxes are by far the most profitable way to sell items. removing them is not an option if W* is to keep a cash shop F2P model. There isn't a discussion to be had. I certainly understand the desire to just get only exactly what every single individual wants for themselves with no other investment needed. But that system would cripple the game financially. This discussion is not one that needs to be had, because it is entirely moot. We all love this game... if we wan't to see it persist we don't get to complain when necessary systems are put in place to keep it running. Edited February 12, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- It makes the outcome of *getting the item you want* uncertain, which is the only outcome anyone cares about. | |} ---- ---- +1 It's been said already in this thread, but I'll just dogpile on: I won't buy the gamble boxes and I don't give a crap about housing. There was no incentive for me to particpate in the previous chase events, so I didn't, and I'm only doing dungeons for glory (and a bit of fun). You're missing the mark on two fronts: your're not getting the participation in the content by players that you could be otherwise, and you're leaving money on the table. Carbine plz. | |} ---- I have an extra on my Chua. not sure if it helps you but if it does you can have it (for free) which is a problem of perception, not gamble. I get a box of chocolates, I don't treat it like a gamble even though I might get specific chocolates I don't like. I still got what I paid for (chocolates). I get a prize box, and I get a prize everytime, I don't treat it like a gamble. I still got what I paid for (a prize) even if I get a few prizes I don't like. Edited February 12, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- ---- For some reason I can't even access it from the forums UI.... I'll get to the bottom of it though. Worst case shoot an email to Nazrynchua@gmail.com (yes I made an email account for my chua..... don't judge ;) ) It's a silly argument. You guys are literally asking Carbine to break their most profitable cash shop item.... Edited February 12, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- ---- You're trying way, way, way too hard. You've gone past the point of reasonable discourse and are coming across as unhinged at this point. | |} ---- Nope. If the only reason you are buying is to get one item, and you wouldn't buy it otherwise, then it isn't a matter of "perception". The only thing worth playing for is that one item. It's clear that's the way the system was designed. I'm not even arguing against Carbine's system, but to claim it isn't gambling is silly. They are obviously set up with low chance to get a valuable reward, and sticking low value rewards doesn't alter it one way or another. | |} ---- If you get a box with multiple possible items for only a single item, that's again a problem of perception. I don't get a box of chocolates if I wan't truffles.... Low chance at rare rewards is not gambling, it's just RNG. Playing D&D isn't gambling... Rolling for initiative isn't gambling... The only place there is such a thing as a low value reward is in your head. I value all the items I get out of the crates, honestly I value the decor more than the mounts or pets... YMMV | |} ---- But if I do want truffles, there are places I can go to only get truffles! D: Also <3 I cannot fit enough <3s in this post without it becoming ridiculous, so <3. | |} ---- I think the problem you're having is you're being too rational and making too much sense for a video game forum. Edit: Sorry I ever agreed with you. It won't happen again. Edited February 15, 2016 by Atomicpanda | |} ---- It's not a problem of perception. It's a problem of the item only being available in that one place. Don't get me wrong, I don't care about any of this stuff. I have no interest in buying the boxes. But the intent and the effect of putting desirable miners behind RNG for money is pretty obvious. | |} ---- To make money the exact same way every other f2p game does? | |} ---- ---- There are plenty of F2P games out there that dont make money by screwing their customers over with RNG boxes. | |} ---- ---- The problem is RNG boxes are inherently anti-consumer. There are consumer friendly ways for F2P games to work. The better approach for long term income would be to keep doing what they've been doing with the cash shop. Push fairly regular content, even if its reskins of existing stuff... But then reinforce the value of subscriptions. If they make subscriptions worthwhile again, the price of CREDD will go up which means it will become a more tantalizing proposition, which means they start making $20 a month off each player again plus the additional revenue from the cash shop. | |} ---- The way many of them do, yes :) Edited February 13, 2016 by SlyJeff | |} ---- You have to be kidding me. Your example above is almost an exact definition of playing slot/pokie machines. Often get smaller payouts than what it actually cost you to spin. Most people want ONLY the mount, therefor the rest of the prizes may as well not even exist. Why is this so hard to understand? | |} ---- The Item is available from the Boxes, but isn't BoP. It's also available through trade / AH / CX. You risk getting nothing on the slots. The outcome is not certain and it's based in putting in money to try to get more money. These are cases with in game items. You purchase them to obtain ingame items and always get ingame items. Again, just like trading card packs. You buy them to get cards; the cards you get aren't guaranteed but you ALWAYS get cards. Gambling boards don't regulate trading card packs... because you aren't gambling, you're buying cards with an element of chance in exactly which cards you get. Same here; you're buying a pack of in-game items with an element of chance in exactly what items you get. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Does that necessarily mean people wont or can't be upset about RNG? Sure, of course they can. I was upset when I rolled a hard 0 and got my Gnome Cleric killed in my last D&D campaign, RNG can suck... but that doesn't mean it's ok to emotionally conflate rng cases with gambling. | |} ---- ---- Just because you don't have a chance at nothing doesn't mean its not gambling the definition isn't black and white like that. As soon as you put the risk of your funds against a chance to win something its gambling.. just think of it this way a lottery where everyone at least gets a consolation prize for participating. As I have stated before im not against this practice.. its a part of every f2p game out there. But if carbine wants to take advantage of all the demographics in this game than they need to add stuff that can just be bought from the cash shop exclusively (not the rng box rewards) .. im sure carbine is making a killing off the boxes.. but how much more money could they be making if they made some cash shop buyouts for those that wont buy boxes... its a no brainer here. A good example would be have one mount in the rng boxes.. maybe have a reskin of the same mount from the cash shop making sure their is an obvious visual differance between the two.. that way the guy who hates rng boxes can buy a mount and the guy who won one can parade around knowing not many have that mount... it would be a win win for both types of players. Carbine would make an addition profit off the shop mount that they normally wouldn't have gotten had they not made it an optional purchase during the time of the event. Edited February 13, 2016 by Rebel Angel | |} ---- I agree. I caved and bought 30 boxes (5 with omnibits) and opened them. Guess what? No mount. No pet. I'm sincerely sad, because I really want the mount so bad if they add it to the store now I'd just buy it instantly. | |} ---- ---- ---- Having ingame items in the box is not ok. But I get that the system is profitable. Even though it doesn't rule out rng and possibility you might get the mount on few numbers of tries, next time you want a mount from rng box perhaps check how fast people are getting mount in general, and if it feels like less than 5% then you can decide if 95% chance on getting items you don't want is worth it enough. | |} ---- Okay. Repeat after me: Gambling doesn't pay, gambling doesn't pay, gambling doesn't pay. | |} ---- I get what you're saying :) But I can't really give them a pass just because of their model being the best, and them still being a AAA game. I understand it needs paying for, and have no problem supporting them, and no problem with the idea/concept of their RNG boxes, but the problem comes in their implementation of it. They have stuff in the boxes you can buy from the Event vendor(and from what others have said, some of the stuff is available else where in the game too, but IDK because I don't do housing :P ). They put too much stuff in the boxes. The mounts and pets are single use, character bound. They are't account wide. That in and of itself isn't a problem either, but the problem goes back to the drop rate and how it's borked because of the in-game stuff that's crammed into the boxes with them. I say keep the mounts and pets one character only, slim down the boxes some. By keeping the mounts and pets one character only, you'll still have people buying the boxes for the chance at the mounts and pets for their alts(or to sell to other players for their alts), which I think would still even it out sales wise. Heck, might even sell more because the people will be more willing to buy something that's giving them better chances. Either remove the in-game items, or my idea of 1-7 decor RNG box; NPC decor box; and Sky, Music, Pet, Mount box. | |} ---- Yea, that is what it comes down to :( | |} ---- ---- Explain this to me. I want you to type out what you just said in detail and see what it sounds like when you read it. Because to me it sounds like you are saying, "We're making the game less enjoyable because if we don't, the game might become less enjoyable. " which is a lot like shooting yourself in the head to avoid a headache. Your logic seems flawed since even at the best levels of crafting, even if we didn't have random sockets, it's still a pain in the muffin to make anything better than what amounts to starter gear for running dungeons. I mean, what is the HUGE risk here? That people will have a large supply of optimized gear they can buy off the AH to start running dungeons in? You know what we call that? "Having fun with our friends." it's kinda the point of the game. The devs seem to have forgotten that what keeps a game alive is positive player experience with other players, not playing spreadsheet simulator 9000. Edited February 16, 2016 by PartTimeWinner | |} ---- I'm not saying the system is perfect, and crafting needs to be fixed. But the idea behind the randomized crafting is that the RNG factor keeps the crafting in check by enforcing failure. The amount of successful crafts of the best item is reduced, making it so that not everyone can immediately obtain it | |} ---- But it's not the best item. Nothing in crafting is the best item. It's at best a stop-gap until you get into real gear when you raid with your guild. What the devs fail to realize is that they are making the same mistake that other MMO's make where they are trying to slow down progression when they should be trying to accelerate it because humans interacting with other humans is what keeps a game's population engaged, not the story, not the graphics, not the puzzles nor the lore, but PEOPLE. Having your own starter dungeon gear, optimized to the build you want to try, that you crafted with your own digital hands, so that you can join your friends in dungeon running on day 1 of being max level is what makes for a positive experience. Anything less is just stupidity on the part of the developers because they are working AGAINST the longevity of the game. They are working AGAINST people having fun. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. You can put out all the nifty content in the world, but if someone is playing it alone, the game won't last. Crafting's ultimate goal should be to help people level as fast as they can and plunge into the end game content with their friends once they get to max. If I had my way each item of crafted armor would give you a 1% XP boost so crafting armor and items are actually worth something as you level. Grinding is not fun. Leveling is not fun. Achieving levels is fun. Reaching level cap is fun. Playing with your friends is fun. The devs need to realize if they want the game to thrive, they need to focus on fun and engagement not micromanagement. | |} ---- That's how it should be. And that can be achieved with the RNG factor still in crafting. Just a tad slower. It's not impossible really, I've crafted many top weapons with stats and specials that people desired. Including the overcharges that failed it's not impossible to do. You just need to be prepared that it sometimes goes wrong. | |} ---- ---- ---- Also that. 0% failure should be 0% failure | |} ----